Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Joseph Kasser, and welcome to this podcast where the AI team does a deep dive into some application of systems thinking.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: All right, let's dive into this systems thinking thing. You guys sent in, like, a whole library's worth of stuff. Articles, research, even some personal notes. Wow. We're going to try to make sense of it all. And luckily, we've got E putting systems to Work to help guide us along the way.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: That's a really good pick. You know, a lot of people, when they hear systems, their minds immediately jump to, like, computers and flowcharts and stuff. But what we're going to explore today, you know, is how systems thinking applies to, well, pretty much everything.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Okay, you've got my attention. So the book starts off by defining a system as an aggregation of heterogeneous entities, so long as purposeful clustering can take place.
Can we translate that into plain English?
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Sure, sure. In simpler terms, think of it as a bunch of different things all working together towards some kind of common goal. Like take a company, for example. You've got your sales team, your marketing folks, the people developing the product, all these separate departments, but they all got to function as one unit if they want to succeed. Right?
[00:01:14] Speaker B: I see, I see. So even something like, I don't know, like rush hour traffic is technically a system. You get all those cars and drivers and the traffic light.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Exactly. And the interesting thing is, systems often behave in ways we can actually predict. That's where this thing called the Unified Systems Hypothesis comes in, the ush. The book uses it as a framework to kind of explain how systems work. You know, the mechanics of it.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: You know, that actually makes me think about that note you sent in about how you're trying to find ways to boost employee motivation at your company. One of the core principles of the USH is it's called reactions, and it basically says that when you make a change to one part of a system, it creates this ripple effect throughout the whole thing. Think that could be playing a part in what you're seeing at work?
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely, without a doubt. Let's say you put a new policy in place to, I don't know, try and increase productivity or something, but then, without meaning to, it ends up causing more stress and people are less collaborative. That's a classic example of reactions in action. You tweaked one part of the system, and then the consequences, they. They ripple outward in ways you might not have seen coming.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: So even changes that you make with the best intentions can backfire if you don't stop and Think about, like, the systemic effects.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: That's a good point. Something to keep in mind, for sure. And speaking of all these interconnected parts, the book also talks about the architecture of a system. Right. And they use this analogy of pipes and supports. What's that all about? Well, think of the architecture as, like, the. The underlying structure of the system. You know, the way all the parts are arranged and how they connect to each other. The pipes, they represent the flow of information, resources, that sort of thing. And the supports, well, they're like the rules, the hierarchies, the feedback loops, all the stuff that kind of holds it all together. This architecture, it has a big impact on how the whole system functions.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: So even if you have two systems with, like, similar components, they could perform completely differently depending on how all those pieces are linked and organized.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Exactly. The book has this example. They analyze a security organization using something called an N2 chart. It maps out how information flows within the organization, and it shows how their structure might actually be creating vulnerabilities or bottlenecks. Imagine if you could map out the communication patterns in your own company. You might uncover, like, hidden inefficiencies or spots where collaboration could be way better.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: I see. I see. Understanding that architecture can be super valuable. So we've talked about the building blocks of a system, these guiding principles, and know this underlying structure. Yeah, but what about the results? The book makes this bold claim that efficiency isn't always the best thing to aim for, which seems kind of counterintuitive. Right.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Here's the thing. Efficiency. It's all about doing things the right way, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing the right things. You know, the book introduces this idea of net contribution, which looks at the overall value a system generates for its environment.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Okay, I think I get it. So, like, a marketing department could be super efficient at pumping out campaigns, but if those campaigns aren't actually aligned with the company's goals or hitting the right audience, then they're efficient but not very effective.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Exactly. They might even have a negative net contribution if they're just wasting resources or even damaging the company's reputation. Right.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: This net contribution idea, I really like that. It's like a much more holistic way to judge the success of a system. And it ties in perfectly with another point the book makes about the human element in system design. They talk about this thing called recognition Prime Decisions, or rpd.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's fascinating. Basically, it suggests that experts often make decisions based on gut feeling, you know, recognizing patterns from experience rather than going through this step by step analysis, think about a doctor diagnosing a patient. They're not always consciously weighing every single possibility. Right. They're using their experience, their intuition to make quick judgments.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: So how do you design systems that actually work with that human element? You know, with our intuition and expertise?
[00:05:17] Speaker A: That's the big question. Right. The book, it kind of challenges that traditional closed system approach to design where everything is super controlled and predictable. In reality, systems need to be adaptable, flexible to account for us messy humans.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Right. Like that example with the power plant, the single mode one versus a system with all the different energy sources. A single mode might look good on paper, but a system with wind, solar, hydro, all of that, it's going to be much more adaptable and resilient when conditions change.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Exactly. We can't design these systems as if they exist in a vacuum. We've got to think about the people involved, how everything's connected, and the fact that the world around us is constantly changing.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: Wow. We covered a lot in this first part of our deep dive. We defined what a system actually is, explored the principles that make them tick, and even touched on how important it is to factor in, you know, the human side of things.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: And we're just getting started. In the next part, we'll be exploring this thing called the seven Step Continuum. It's a framework the book lays out for designing and building systems that are not only effective, but also adaptable and resilient in the long run.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: All right, this seven step continuum, the ssc, I'm ready to dig into that. If we're going to actually use systems thinking in our own lives, our work, a framework like that seems like it would be super helpful.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: It really is. And the cool thing is the ssc, it's actually pretty intuitive. It starts with something, well, pretty basic to humans.
Curiosity.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Curiosity. How so?
[00:06:45] Speaker A: The first step in the ssc, it's all about really getting a grasp on the issue you're dealing with. Not just like scratching the surface, but digging deep, you know, figuring out the root causes and all the different factors that are playing a part. It's asking why over and over until you hit the core of the problem.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: So it's like that detective work you were talking about earlier. Instead of just like treating the symptoms, you got to find the underlying cause, the disease, so to speak.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: Exactly. Remember that note you sent about wanting to improve communication on your team? Maybe the problem isn't that people just aren't speaking up enough. It could be something deeper, structural, even. Like roles that aren't Clear. Or people don't feel safe enough to share their ideas. That first step, it's about exploring all those angles.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Okay, that makes sense. So once you've got a good understanding of what the problem actually is, what's next?
[00:07:34] Speaker A: All right. Then we move on to step two, which is establishing the need. This is where we define, okay, what are we trying to achieve with this system? Who are all the people involved, the stakeholders, and what do they need? What are their expectations, and what are we ultimately hoping to accomplish here?
[00:07:50] Speaker B: So it's like defining the why behind the system. What's its purpose? What good? What are we hoping it'll do?
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Exactly. And it's not just about what we want either. We gotta think about everyone involved they need. Like, let's say you're designing a new product. You need to understand. Sure. What your boss wants, but also what your customers need, what you engineers can actually build, and how this all fits into the bigger market. You know?
[00:08:12] Speaker B: Gotcha. So step two, it's about getting clear on the outcomes you're shooting for. Making sure everyone's on the same page. Seems like a pretty crucial step if you want the project to succeed.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. And then step three is where we start thinking about the how. This is where we develop the actual process, the structure of the system.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Okay, so this is where we roll up our sleeves and start making those blueprints, right?
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah, kind of. We're figuring out all the steps involved, how information's going to flow, who's in charge of what, what resources we need, and how all the parts are going to work together, the interactions.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: You know, this reminds me of something from that article you sent. The one about making healthcare more efficient.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: You were talking about, like, mapping out patient journeys to find those bottlenecks, those areas you can improve. Seems like a similar approach.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: It is, it is. And it highlights another important part of step three. Understanding the limitations of the system.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: You mean like accepting that you can't build a perfect system that solves every single problem?
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Exactly. Gotta be realistic about what you can achieve and factor in any constraints you might run into. Which leads us right into step four, estimating capacities.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Okay, now this sounds like it's getting a little more technical. We're talking about, like, crunching numbers.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, to a certain extent. It's about figuring out the system's limits, like, how much can it actually handle, how fast can it process information? What could potentially slow things down, create a bottleneck.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: I'm picturing those flowcharts again with arrows, numbers, and all that. Is this where it gets super complicated?
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Not necessarily. The trick is to focus on the metrics that really matter for what you're trying to achieve with the system. Like for that team communication issue, you'd look at how fast information usually travels between departments or how much time gets wasted on pointless meetings.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: So it's more about getting the right data to help you make smart decisions about how the system's designed. Makes sense. What happens once you have a good handle on the system's capacity?
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Well, that's when the real fun starts. Step five is all about developing performance. It's where we start fine tuning the system, making sure it can actually hit those goals we set earlier.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: So sticking with our example, if our goal is to improve how the team communicates, this is where we put specific strategies into action. Right. Like encouraging open dialogue, streamlining how information's shared, creating a more collaborative environment. All of that.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: You got it. And remember, it's not just about doing more, it's about doing things better. We want the system to be efficient. Sure, but also effective, impactful.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Which brings us to step six. Right. Developing effectiveness.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Bingo. This step, it takes a wider view. It's about making sure the system doesn't just work well on its own in isolation, but that it actually has a positive effect on its surroundings.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: So for our team communication example, we wouldn't just measure, like, how much people are talking. We'd also look at whether that communication is actually leading to better decisions, more innovation, a stronger sense of shared purpose within the team.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Exactly. We're looking beyond just the immediate outputs of the system, thinking about the bigger impact it affects, the organization, the community, maybe even the world as a whole.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: It's that net contribution idea again. Right. We're aiming for a system that has a positive impact on everything around it. I like that. All right, we've gone through six steps from figuring out the issue to optimizing for effectiveness. What's the final step in this continuum?
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Step seven, it's about taking a step back, looking at all the potential solutions we've come up with. We've been in the trenches designing, analyzing, optimizing. Now it's time to evaluate what we've done, be critical.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: So we're putting on our judge hats and asking those tough questions, like, does this solution actually fix the problem we started with? Does it meet everyone's needs? Is it actually doable?
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Exactly. We're also thinking about any unintended consequences our design might have. Remember that reactions principle? Gotta make sure our solution isn't gonna create a bunch of New problems down the line.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: So step seven, it's about that holistic view again. Looking at the bigger picture, all the possible outcomes, and making sure we're not just building a system, but the right system for the right reasons.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Couldn't have said it better myself. And this step also involved tapping into that creative energy you were talking about before. Being willing to question assumptions, look at things from different angles and come up with solutions that are truly innovative. You know, solutions that push the boundaries.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: This seven step continuum, it's a really impressive framework, takes you from a vague problem all the way to a well thought out solution. And it keeps both performance and positive impact in mind.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: And it's not a straight line either. You might have to jump back and forth between steps as you learn more or run into new challenges.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: More like a dance, right? A creative exploration where you're always refining what you understand and how you're approaching the problem.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: I like that. A dance that really captures the spirit of systems thinking. Embracing the fact that things are complex, being able to adapt, and always learning, always evolving.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: We've covered so much ground in this deep dive, exploring the basic principles behind systems thinking, diving into that seven step continuum and talking about how you can actually apply all of this to real world challenges, including those you shared with us.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: And this is where it gets really interesting, because in the next part, we're going to shift gears a bit. We're going to zoom out even further and explore how systems thinking can help us understand not just specific problems, but the bigger picture of how the world works.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: You know, as we've been talking about this seven step continuum, I keep thinking back to that note you sent in about feeling overwhelmed by how complex your work is. It seems like systems thinking could be a really good tool for dealing with that complexity.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Oh, it definitely can be. One of the key things the book drives home is that systems, they don't just exist in a vacuum, they're all interconnected, you know, constantly influencing and being influenced by everything around them.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: So instead of getting bogged down in the details of one specific problem, systems thinking helps you zoom out and see the bigger picture.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Exactly. And that wider perspective, it can help you make much better decisions. The book really emphasizes understanding the relationships between different systems, what they call complementary systems.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Can you give me an example of that?
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Sure. Think about your company's marketing. Right. You mentioned wanting to boost engagement on social media. A systems thinker wouldn't just focus on making the content better, they'd also look at how the marketing system interacts with other systems. In the company, like customer service or product development.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: So like, even if you've got the best social media content out there, a bad customer service experience could be totally sabotaging your efforts.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Exactly. It's about seeing those connections, those feedback loops, and understanding how changes in one system can have these ripple effects on others.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: This is making me realize that systems thinking isn't just about, like, understanding complex systems. It's about understanding the consequences of what we do within those systems.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: And that brings up another really important idea from the book, unintended consequences. You can have the best intentions in the world, but your actions can still have negative ripple effects if you don't think about the bigger picture, you know, the systemic implications.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: You know what that reminds me of? That article you sent in about the problems companies face when they try to implement new technology. They were saying that this one system, it was designed to make things more efficient, but it actually ended up making employees less happy because it didn't take into account, like, the human need for connection and feeling like you have control over your work.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: That's a perfect example of how crucial it is to design systems that work with human nature, not against it. The book stresses this point over and over, that you've got to consider the human element at every step of the design process.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: Right? Like those recognition prime decisions we were talking about earlier. Instead of trying to replace human intuition with some algorithm, we should be building systems that actually support and enhance our natural abilities.
[00:16:04] Speaker A: And that leads to systems that are more sustainable, more resilient in the long run. Because, let's face it, humans, we're adaptable. We can learn, adjust, improvise in ways that, well, machines just can't. At least not yet.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: This deep dive has been amazing. Seriously, eye opening. We've explored the core principles of systems thinking, got into the nitty gritty of that seven step continuum, and even talked about how all of this applies to real world problems, including the ones you're facing.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: And the best part is this is really just the beginning. Systems thinking, it's not just a toolbox or a set of techniques. It's a way of thinking, a lens you can use to view the world and your place in it.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Before we go, I want to leave you with a challenge from the book. Think about it. If you could design any system to improve your work, your community, the whole world, what would it be?
[00:16:55] Speaker A: How would you make it adaptable, resilient? How would you make sure it's actually contributing to the greater good? Really sit with those questions. You might be surprised by what you come up with. Who knows, maybe you'll end up designing a system that changes the world.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: And if you want to share your thoughts or keep this conversation going, head over to our website or find us on social media. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time, Happy Systems thinking.
