Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Joseph Kasser, and welcome to this podcast where the AI Team does a deep dive into some application of systems thinking.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: All right, so get ready, because today we're going to do a deep dive into something I bet you think you know really well the Ten Commandments. You have those really important rules. But what if I told you there might actually be way more than 10?
Yeah. The source material you gave me for this deep dive uses this thing called systems thinking to analyze the commandments, and the results are, well, pretty surprising.
[00:00:38] Speaker C: It is interesting, isn't it? We often just kind of accept the idea of ten commandments without really looking closely at the actual text.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Exactly. So maybe we should start with some basics. The Ten Commandments show up in two places. In the Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. They were given by God to the Israelites. Pretty straightforward, right? Well, the source material for this deep dive was written by Dr. Joseph E. Kasser, and he challenges this traditional understanding. He says that the way we usually count the commandments, well, we might be missing some really important details.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: The fascinating thing is that Dr. Kasser points out that a lot of the verses that have the commandments in them use phrases with or, and nor. And he thinks that each one of those phrases could actually be a separate instruction, a separate commandment.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Wait, so you're saying instead of one big rule, it's actually a bunch of smaller rules all kind of put together? That's really making me think differently about how I've always thought about these commandments.
[00:01:31] Speaker C: Exactly. And to really get why Dr. Kasser says this, we need to look at how the text is written. For example, let's look at the commandment about graven images. In Exodus 20.4. It says that you're not supposed to make images of anything in the heavens above, the earth beneath, or the waters below.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: So if I'm following you, you're saying that one verse could actually have multiple commandments in it.
[00:01:53] Speaker C: Exactly. Dr. Kasser sees each part of creation that you're not allowed to make an image of as a separate instruction. So in this case, the verse about graven images actually has four different commandments.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Okay, I'm starting to see how this adds up. So how many commandments does Dr. Kasser end up with when he uses this method?
[00:02:10] Speaker C: He ends up with a total of 24 commandments. That's pretty different from the usual 10, wouldn't you say?
[00:02:16] Speaker B: That's a huge difference. It's not just like a small change. It changes how we understand these really basic rules completely. But does everyone agree with Dr. Kasser's interpretation?
[00:02:28] Speaker C: That's a great question. While Dr. Kasser does have some really strong evidence, not all scholars agree with him. Some people say that he's overthinking it or taking the language too literally.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: So there's definitely room for debate. It's not like this is the only right answer, but it definitely makes you think. This is making me think about what all of this means. Does it mean that we've been understanding these commandments wrong this whole time?
[00:02:51] Speaker C: That's where things get really interesting. Dr. Castor's analysis doesn't mean that the traditional way of understanding the Ten Commandments is wrong. He's just suggesting that there's more detail and nuance that we might have missed before. It's like he's giving us a new way to look at these old texts.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: So it's not about getting rid of the old way of thinking completely. It's more about adding another layer of understanding on top of it. I like that.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Exactly. Dr. Kasser says that grouping the commandments into 10 categories is still helpful because it gives us a framework for understanding the big principles they represent. But his analysis encourages us to go deeper into the specifics of each instruction.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: This is really making me think about how we interpret religious texts in general. It seems like there's always more to find if you're willing to look closely enough. So should we look at some more examples of how Dr. Casser comes up with his 24 commandments? I'm really curious to see how this works in the actual verses.
[00:03:43] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. One of the most interesting examples is in the commandment against coveting. That's in Exodus 20.17. It starts with, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, which would be one commandment. But then it keeps going. Thou shalt not come at thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, or his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: So you're saying each one of those nors is adding another Commandment? According to Dr. Kasser, that's right.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: He sees each thing that you're not supposed to covet as its own separate instruction. So in just this one verse about coveting, Dr. Kasser finds seven separate commandments.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Wow, that's a lot in one verse. Going through these examples, we've seen the number of commandments jump from one to four, and now to seven. Is there any reason why some verses have more commandments than others, or is it totally random?
[00:04:31] Speaker C: It's not totally random, but there's not really a pattern either. The number of commandments that Dr. Kasser finds really just depends on the specific words and how each verse is structured. Some verses, like Exodus 20.3, which says, Thou shalt have no other gods before me, are seen as just one commandment, even though it's clearly like a really important principle.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: That's interesting. Even though that commandment about having no other gods feels so important, it doesn't get multiplied in the same way as some of the other verses.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: That's a really good point, and it shows something important. The importance of a commandment isn't necessarily about how many instructions it has. Dr. Kasser actually makes a distinction between what he calls the what's and the hows of the commandments.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Oh, right, you mentioned that before. Can you remind me what that difference is?
[00:05:13] Speaker C: Sure. The what's are the main ideas or values that the commandments are trying to teach, and the hows are the specific instructions or actions that go along with those principles. So, for example, let's look at the commandment about the Sabbath. The part that says, remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Is the what the main principle. Then you have the instruction that says, six days shalt thou labor, which is a how, a specific way to observe the Sabbath.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: That's really helpful. So the what's are like the big ideas and the hows are the ways to put those ideas into practice. It's almost like the what's are the goals, and the hows are the steps to reach those goals.
[00:05:50] Speaker C: That's a great way to think about it. And I think this idea of what's and hows is especially important when we try to think about how these old commandments apply to our lives today.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: That makes sense. The world has changed so much since these commandments were given. So if there are 24 different instructions within the commandments, like Dr. Kasser says, how do we know which hows are still important today and which ones we might need to reinterpret or change?
[00:06:15] Speaker C: That's a tough question, and there aren't any easy answers, but I think it's definitely worth thinking about. Dr. Kasser's analysis makes us look at all the details of these old texts, and it makes us have a serious conversation about how they might help us in the 21st century.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: I totally agree. This is way more than just counting rules. It's making us really rethink how deep and complex these basic rules are. Now I remember the source material also brought up some interesting stuff about the Sabbath, especially about how it's observed today. Can you remind me what that was about?
[00:06:45] Speaker C: Of course. One thing that Dr. Kasser talks about is that in the Bible, the priests who worked in the temple were actually allowed to work on the Sabbath. They had to do certain jobs on the Sabbath, like offering sacrifices.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Oh, so there was already an exception to the rule even way back then. That's interesting.
[00:07:00] Speaker C: It is. And it leads to a really thought provoking question that Dr. Kasser, could there be a similar exception for religious leaders today?
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Oh, I see what he's getting at. A lot of religious leaders today work on the Sabbath. Like leading services, counseling people, and doing other stuff related to their faith.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: Exactly. And this brings up all sorts of complicated issues. If the Bible says that there can be good reasons to break the rule about working on the Sabbath, how do we understand that today? Who gets to decide what's a good reason? Is it up to each person, or is there some authority that says what's okay?
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Those are some tough questions, and I don't think there are any easy answers. It seems like Dr. Kasser's analysis is giving us more questions than answers.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: You could say that, but I think that's one of the best things about his work. It's not about giving us all the answers, but about making us explore these old texts more deeply and figuring out what they mean for us today.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: You know, this whole conversation is making me think about how we look at any text that can be interpreted in different ways, not just religious texts. Yeah. It reminds us that there's always more to learn if we go deeper than just the surface.
[00:08:06] Speaker C: That's a great point. This deep dive has really shown us how important it is to ask questions, to think about different viewpoints, and to be open to new ideas. It's about looking at familiar things in a new way and being willing to question what we think we know.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: Absolutely. So for our listeners out there, what are you thinking about all of this? What stands out to you from this deep dive? What are you taking away from this exploration of the Ten Commandments and the idea of systems thinking?
[00:08:33] Speaker C: Those are great questions for everyone listening. This deep dive has shown that there's always something more to learn, more depth to find. If we look beyond the surface, it doesn't matter if it's the Bible, a historical document, or even a news article. Using critical thinking and considering different viewpoints can really help us understand better and find new insights.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: I couldn't have said it better myself. Now let's change gears a little and talk about this systems thinking idea that Dr. Kasser uses. We talked about it a bit before, but can you explain what systems thinking is and why it matters here?
[00:09:05] Speaker C: Of course. Systems thinking is basically a way of looking at the world that focuses on how everything is connected. It's about understanding how different parts of a system work together and how those interactions create the way the whole system behaves.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. So instead of just looking at individual things separately, systems thinking encourages us to look at the bigger picture and see how everything fits together.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: Exactly. It's like looking at a car engineering. You can understand how each individual part works. The pistons, the spark plugs, the fuel injectors. But to really understand how the engine runs, you need to see how all those parts work together as a system.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: That's a great way to explain it. So how does systems thinking relate to Dr. Kasser's analysis of the Ten Commandments?
[00:09:49] Speaker C: Well, he's not just looking at each commandment as a separate rule. He's looking at how they all relate to each other, how they make up a whole system. He sees them as connected parts of a bigger system of moral and ethical guidance.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: I see. So it's not just about understanding the individual what's and hows of each commandment, but also about seeing how they all work together to make a complete picture.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: Exactly. And that's where the power of systems thinking really comes in. It helps us see patterns and connections that we might miss if we just focus on the individual parts.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: This is really interesting. I'm starting to think about how I could use systems thinking in other areas of my life. It seems like such a helpful tool for understanding complicated things and making better decisions.
[00:10:32] Speaker C: It definitely is. Systems thinking can be used in so many different areas, from business and economics to healthcare and education. It encourages us to think beyond what's obvious, to consider the things that might happen that we don't expect, and to find solutions that get to the root of the problem.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: This deep dive is turning out to be even more enlightening than I thought it would be. It's not only made me rethink what I thought I knew about the Ten Commandments, but it's also introduced me to a whole new way of thinking. And I can use that in lots of different parts of my life.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: And that's the beauty of these deep dives. They can open up new ways of exploring, spark our curiosity, and encourage us to see the world from a fresh perspective.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: I think this is a perfect example of how doing a deep Dive can really show us new ways to think about things. So to wrap up our look at Dr. Kasser's analysis, is there anything else from what he wrote that we should talk about?
[00:11:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's important to remember that Dr. Casser's work isn't just about, like, counting up the commandments. It's about looking at the text in a new way and asking different questions. His analysis makes us think critically about how we understand these ancient texts and how we can apply what they teach us to our lives today.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: That's a really important point. It's not just about memorizing rules. It's about understanding what they really mean and how they might guide us in a world that's so different from the one they were originally given in.
[00:11:51] Speaker C: Exactly. One of the key takeaways from Dr. Kasser's analysis is that a text can have multiple valid interpretations. What matters is that we engage with the text thoughtfully, think about different viewpoints, and be willing to question our own assumptions.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: That's a really powerful message. And it's not just for religious texts, it's for any kind of communication. We should always try to be open minded, think critically, and really listen to each other. So, to everyone listening, what are your thoughts on all of this? What's sticking with you from this deep dive? What will you take away from exploring the Ten Commandments and this idea of systems thinking?
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Those are great questions for our listeners to think about. This deep dive has shown us that there's always more to learn and more depth to find. If we just look a little deeper, whether it's the Bible, a historical document, or even just a news article, using critical thinking and considering different perspectives can really help us understand better and see things in a new light.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: I totally agree. This has been such a thought provoking deep dive for me, and I hope it has been for you too. It reminds us that learning never stops and there's always something new to discover if we're open to it. So keep exploring, keep asking questions, and keep on deep diving.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: I hope you enjoyed today's deep dive. If you'd like to discuss any of the questions or anything that you heard in the podcast or would like the team to do a deep dive into a different topic, please join the LinkedIn group and let me know. I look forward to providing you with many more deep dives into the applications of systems thinking.
Take care.
